Steven J says...
David, for example, seems utterly ignorant of the principle when he kills many of the surviving descendants of Saul in retaliation for Saul's murder of the Gibeonites),
Actually, Steven, if you read the account a little more clearly, you will see that 'The LORD said, "There is bloodguilt on Saul and on his house, because he put the Gibeonites to death."'
In response to God's instruction, David sought atonement for Saul's sins. He offered to give the Gibeonites just compensation for the evil that Saul had done.
You opt to use the word "retaliation" to identify David's motive; I suspect that for many readers, that word has a familiar connotation which is beyond the author's meaning, which would really be rendered more accurately as "adequate compensation" or "atonement".
The account tells us that David was seeking a blessing on Israel; it doesn't tell us that David was satisfying some sort of bloodlust rage.
We also note that it was not David that killed Saul's descendants. Rather, it was the Gibeonites who put the men to death. David equitably satisfied the compensation requested by the Gibeonites.
You likely consider this a minor point, that David handed over the men to the Gibeonites to be put to death, rather than killing the men himself. You are likely to see this as a trivial distinction unworthy of note.
But I suggest to you that the author of the account does deem this particular point to be "worth noting". It's of sufficient importance to be noted by the author.
You also suggest that David is "utterly ignorant" of the LORD's principles. Yet in the account we read that it is the LORD himself that gives David instruction, pointing out that there has been no atonement made for Saul's sin.
Tuesday, January 31, 2012
create something imperfect
Joshua asks...
How does something perfect like God create something imperfect? How is something omniscient like God not know ahead of time that Adam was going to sin? If He did know before hand, why not stop him?
Joshua,
God creates things that perfectly suit his purpose. What you view as imperfect, God sees as entirely complete and suitable, with the capacity for being re-made perfect. God is a maker. God has the ability to re-make things, in a way that perfectly suits his purpose.
For by that one offering he forever made perfect those who are being made holy. Hebrews 10:14 NLT
Perhaps it is in the process of re-making tin soldiers into men that God sees perfection.
How is something omniscient like God not know ahead of time that Adam was going to sin?
God did know.
You aren't suggesting here that eternal God, creator of time, beyond the bounds of time... you aren't suggesting here that there was something God did not already know, before there was time.
If He did know before hand, why not stop him?
Because it did not suit God's purpose to "stop him". God's purpose was served by allowing Adam to disobey. God's purpose was served by allowing sin to enter the world through Adam's disobedience.
How does something perfect like God create something imperfect? How is something omniscient like God not know ahead of time that Adam was going to sin? If He did know before hand, why not stop him?
Joshua,
God creates things that perfectly suit his purpose. What you view as imperfect, God sees as entirely complete and suitable, with the capacity for being re-made perfect. God is a maker. God has the ability to re-make things, in a way that perfectly suits his purpose.
For by that one offering he forever made perfect those who are being made holy. Hebrews 10:14 NLT
Perhaps it is in the process of re-making tin soldiers into men that God sees perfection.
How is something omniscient like God not know ahead of time that Adam was going to sin?
God did know.
You aren't suggesting here that eternal God, creator of time, beyond the bounds of time... you aren't suggesting here that there was something God did not already know, before there was time.
If He did know before hand, why not stop him?
Because it did not suit God's purpose to "stop him". God's purpose was served by allowing Adam to disobey. God's purpose was served by allowing sin to enter the world through Adam's disobedience.
never heard of
Steven_J says...
God acts as if He's never heard of Deuteronomy 24:16, and still thinks that it is fair to punish children for the sins of their fathers.
This is because the injunction given in Deuteronomy 24:16 is not a description of any eternal principle of God's justice. Rather, this instruction pertained to human affairs adjucated by a human court.
We note that Saul's offense to God was not brought before the judicial system. Rather, God himself was dealing with Saul's affront.
There many accounts in the Bible you could choose to point to, Steven, and to which you could say that Deuteronomy 24:16 appears to have had no bearing on whatsoever. But if care to take a closer look at those accounts, you will also note that in each of them it is God himself (and not a human court) that is dealing with offenses against him.
You suggest that the account of David illustrates a "contradiction". You attempt to resolve this contradiction by concluding that David was "utterly ignorant" of Deuteronomy 24:16. "More to the point", you say, God appears to be utterly ignorant of it.
Of course a more plausible explanation is that David is not only familiar with the injunction against vicarious punishment, but that he was also completely aware that this rule constrained only the human judicial system, and that God himself was not bound by this rule.
David was fully aware that this instruction was given specifically in the context of human affairs. David did not share your illusion that this instruction was given as an illustration of God's eternal principles.
Steven, you seem keen to read into verse 16 ideas that are just simply not there. You read into this verse "reasons" that this rule is given to Israel, variously, because it is "fair", or because this is a principle that governs God's dealing with people. You choose to inject your own meaning in place of what the author actually said.
You have failed to demonstrate that it is incumbent upon God to be governed by every rule that he has given to Israel. And you have failed to show any reason (beyond wishful thinking) that we would even imagine this might be or should be so.
Yet you insist that this specific instruction is somehow applicable to God, and should govern how God deals with affronts against him.
In short, there is no real contradiction.
In spite of your claim to the contrary, the simple fact is that Deuteronomy 24:16 is not a repudiation of God's principle of corporate responsibility.
God acts as if He's never heard of Deuteronomy 24:16, and still thinks that it is fair to punish children for the sins of their fathers.
This is because the injunction given in Deuteronomy 24:16 is not a description of any eternal principle of God's justice. Rather, this instruction pertained to human affairs adjucated by a human court.
We note that Saul's offense to God was not brought before the judicial system. Rather, God himself was dealing with Saul's affront.
There many accounts in the Bible you could choose to point to, Steven, and to which you could say that Deuteronomy 24:16 appears to have had no bearing on whatsoever. But if care to take a closer look at those accounts, you will also note that in each of them it is God himself (and not a human court) that is dealing with offenses against him.
You suggest that the account of David illustrates a "contradiction". You attempt to resolve this contradiction by concluding that David was "utterly ignorant" of Deuteronomy 24:16. "More to the point", you say, God appears to be utterly ignorant of it.
Of course a more plausible explanation is that David is not only familiar with the injunction against vicarious punishment, but that he was also completely aware that this rule constrained only the human judicial system, and that God himself was not bound by this rule.
David was fully aware that this instruction was given specifically in the context of human affairs. David did not share your illusion that this instruction was given as an illustration of God's eternal principles.
Steven, you seem keen to read into verse 16 ideas that are just simply not there. You read into this verse "reasons" that this rule is given to Israel, variously, because it is "fair", or because this is a principle that governs God's dealing with people. You choose to inject your own meaning in place of what the author actually said.
You have failed to demonstrate that it is incumbent upon God to be governed by every rule that he has given to Israel. And you have failed to show any reason (beyond wishful thinking) that we would even imagine this might be or should be so.
Yet you insist that this specific instruction is somehow applicable to God, and should govern how God deals with affronts against him.
In short, there is no real contradiction.
In spite of your claim to the contrary, the simple fact is that Deuteronomy 24:16 is not a repudiation of God's principle of corporate responsibility.
Tuesday, September 27, 2011
Regret
Whateverman asks...
God regretted the way he'd created humanity - right?
regret
verb
1.to feel sorrow or remorse for (an act, fault, disappointment, etc.):
He no sooner spoke than he regretted it.
2.to think of with a sense of loss:
to regret one's vanished youth.
The Lord saw that the human beings on the earth were very wicked and that everything they thought about was evil. He was sorry he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the Lord said, "I will destroy all human beings that I made on the earth. And I will destroy every animal and everything that crawls on the earth and the birds of the air, because I am sorry I have made them." Genesis 6:5-7
Perhaps God did not regret "the way" he made humanity. Rather, the text seems to indicate that God regretted that he had made humanity at all.
What was the cause of God's disappointment? Verse 5 seems to indicate that it was man's choice to be evil that was the disappointment.
Because God is holy (set apart, perfect and pure), God cannot abide wickedness and evil of man.
So the humanity that God created chose evil rather than choosing God's righteousness, and by their own choice, they prevent themselves from being with God.
God has "lost" every one of the people that he created. God is troubled by the great loss of these people. By their own choice, all of these people are already "lost" to God. Even if God allows the people to live, they still cannot be with him. So there is no loss to God if they are all destroyed.
Except that God finds one man, Noah, who chooses God's righteousness.
cf. Isaiah 51
---
Perhaps the idea that God was "sorry" is a rudimentary illustration. Perhaps it serves as a picture we can understand, which illustrates an idea which we can not fully comprehend.
God regretted the way he'd created humanity - right?
regret
verb
1.to feel sorrow or remorse for (an act, fault, disappointment, etc.):
He no sooner spoke than he regretted it.
2.to think of with a sense of loss:
to regret one's vanished youth.
The Lord saw that the human beings on the earth were very wicked and that everything they thought about was evil. He was sorry he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the Lord said, "I will destroy all human beings that I made on the earth. And I will destroy every animal and everything that crawls on the earth and the birds of the air, because I am sorry I have made them." Genesis 6:5-7
Perhaps God did not regret "the way" he made humanity. Rather, the text seems to indicate that God regretted that he had made humanity at all.
What was the cause of God's disappointment? Verse 5 seems to indicate that it was man's choice to be evil that was the disappointment.
Because God is holy (set apart, perfect and pure), God cannot abide wickedness and evil of man.
So the humanity that God created chose evil rather than choosing God's righteousness, and by their own choice, they prevent themselves from being with God.
God has "lost" every one of the people that he created. God is troubled by the great loss of these people. By their own choice, all of these people are already "lost" to God. Even if God allows the people to live, they still cannot be with him. So there is no loss to God if they are all destroyed.
Except that God finds one man, Noah, who chooses God's righteousness.
cf. Isaiah 51
---
Perhaps the idea that God was "sorry" is a rudimentary illustration. Perhaps it serves as a picture we can understand, which illustrates an idea which we can not fully comprehend.
Monday, September 26, 2011
Sight
Darmog asks...
Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
The "sight" referred to here is a shadow. What God is concerned with is the condition of your heart. God wants the eyes of your heart opened, so that your heart can have "sight".
I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you (Ephesians 1:18 NIV)
We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives (Colossians 1:9 NIV)
Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
The "sight" referred to here is a shadow. What God is concerned with is the condition of your heart. God wants the eyes of your heart opened, so that your heart can have "sight".
I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you (Ephesians 1:18 NIV)
We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives (Colossians 1:9 NIV)
Sacrifice
Darmog asks...
When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
Dear Darmog,
There is no need for you to offer burnt sacrifices to the Lord. You are not under the commands of the Old Covenant. God takes no delight in a mechanical sacrifice offered from a false heart.
(See Isaiah 1:4,14-17, Amos 5:21-24)
What pleases the Lord is a clean heart, and the actions that emanate from it.
The sacrifices of the Old Covenant were only a shadow, pointing to the only sufficient sacrifice, done once and for all.
(See e.g. Hebrews 7:27, Hebrews 9:12.)
When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
Dear Darmog,
There is no need for you to offer burnt sacrifices to the Lord. You are not under the commands of the Old Covenant. God takes no delight in a mechanical sacrifice offered from a false heart.
(See Isaiah 1:4,14-17, Amos 5:21-24)
What pleases the Lord is a clean heart, and the actions that emanate from it.
The sacrifices of the Old Covenant were only a shadow, pointing to the only sufficient sacrifice, done once and for all.
(See e.g. Hebrews 7:27, Hebrews 9:12.)
Monday, May 16, 2011
why should we try ...
Mudley asks...
Ray, regardless of whether or not Hell exists, why should we try to avoid going there?
It seems to me that the bible is clear that we are all deserving of hell. So why should we try to avoid the punishment we deserve? It seems like the whole Jesus thing is just some legal loophole to let people off the hook.
Dishonest people exploit loopholes for their benefit. Honest people take what they deserve.
So tell me why you are so desperately trying to avoid the punishment you admit that you deserve?
@Mudley
The short answer: it's what God wants.
It's not about what I desire, Mudley. It's about what God desires.
Ray, regardless of whether or not Hell exists, why should we try to avoid going there?
It seems to me that the bible is clear that we are all deserving of hell. So why should we try to avoid the punishment we deserve? It seems like the whole Jesus thing is just some legal loophole to let people off the hook.
Dishonest people exploit loopholes for their benefit. Honest people take what they deserve.
So tell me why you are so desperately trying to avoid the punishment you admit that you deserve?
@Mudley
The short answer: it's what God wants.
It's not about what I desire, Mudley. It's about what God desires.
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