derreckbennett said..
The Ten Commandments don't represent anything particularly innovative in Mediterranean antiquity, nor do they bear the mark of divine revelation. This is because, ultimately, all such codes of conduct represent "universals" among mankind that, over the course of time, naturally came about for the sake of social order and harmony within developing civilizations
@derreckbennet
Yes, you are quite right that morality (the idea that murder and theft are wrong) is universal to mankind. This is quite true. Mankind has morality written on his heart.
But, this is not the result of natural processes, as you assert it is.
You are right that it was not the Ten Commandments that brought morality to mankind.
The truth is that it was God that created man with a moral compass, and it is God that gives every man a conscience to inform his thoughts and behavior.
The universality of moral codes you observe is a product of God's handiwork, not of unguided natural processes and random chance.
HTH
Thursday, July 1, 2010
Those Infernal Parentheses
culberto said...
Don’t murder (violated through hatred). Don’t commit adultery (violated with lust--see Matthew 5:27-28).
You see Ray, the reason that you have to keep adding those infernal parentheses is that it *isn't* all there. Reading this post reminded me of my experiences reading the Bible you sent me. Just unbearable.
@culberto,
The truth is that those infernal parenthesis *are* there. They are there because Jesus teaches the full meaning of the Law and the commandments.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Matthew 5:17
Jesus reveals that the former Law was only a shadow. The commandment appears to prohibit the taking of an innocent life. But the reality is that the commandment is against anger. Anyone that has a heart of spite or malice, they are guilty of breaking the commandment.
(See my prior response to captain howdy.)
Don’t murder (violated through hatred). Don’t commit adultery (violated with lust--see Matthew 5:27-28).
You see Ray, the reason that you have to keep adding those infernal parentheses is that it *isn't* all there. Reading this post reminded me of my experiences reading the Bible you sent me. Just unbearable.
@culberto,
The truth is that those infernal parenthesis *are* there. They are there because Jesus teaches the full meaning of the Law and the commandments.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Matthew 5:17
Jesus reveals that the former Law was only a shadow. The commandment appears to prohibit the taking of an innocent life. But the reality is that the commandment is against anger. Anyone that has a heart of spite or malice, they are guilty of breaking the commandment.
(See my prior response to captain howdy.)
Exactly The Same Thing
captain howdy said...
So, for the Ten Commandments to be literally true, murder has to be exactly the same thing as hate. And if murder and hate aren't exactly the same thing, then the Ten Commandments is false. Right, Ray?
@captain howdy
The Ten Commandments were not made false by God. Jesus "filled out" the Law to its full meaning.
The commandment says "do not murder". Jesus fills that commandment out, and says that it's not just the act of murder that is sin, but that it's really the condition of a man's heart that makes him guilty of breaking the commandment.
Jesus is teaching people who are already familiar with the Ten Commandments:
"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.'" Matthew 5:21 (NIV)
God's commandment says "Do not murder". Breaking the commandment means judgment from God.
Jesus goes on to teach something that is not familiar to his listeners. He "fills out" the commandment, bringing it to its full meaning:
"But I say, if you are even angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the court. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell." Matthew 5:22 (NLT)
Jesus says that its the condition of a man's heart, not just his actions, that make him guilty of breaking the commandment.
With careless words, a man my find himself brought before the court of man.
But with purposefully angry words, Jesus says that it is certain that man will find himself judged by God.
So, no, captain howdy. The commandment "do not murder" is not false. It is a true shadow of the full meaning of the law.
HTH
So, for the Ten Commandments to be literally true, murder has to be exactly the same thing as hate. And if murder and hate aren't exactly the same thing, then the Ten Commandments is false. Right, Ray?
@captain howdy
The Ten Commandments were not made false by God. Jesus "filled out" the Law to its full meaning.
The commandment says "do not murder". Jesus fills that commandment out, and says that it's not just the act of murder that is sin, but that it's really the condition of a man's heart that makes him guilty of breaking the commandment.
Jesus is teaching people who are already familiar with the Ten Commandments:
"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.'" Matthew 5:21 (NIV)
God's commandment says "Do not murder". Breaking the commandment means judgment from God.
Jesus goes on to teach something that is not familiar to his listeners. He "fills out" the commandment, bringing it to its full meaning:
"But I say, if you are even angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the court. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell." Matthew 5:22 (NLT)
Jesus says that its the condition of a man's heart, not just his actions, that make him guilty of breaking the commandment.
With careless words, a man my find himself brought before the court of man.
But with purposefully angry words, Jesus says that it is certain that man will find himself judged by God.
So, no, captain howdy. The commandment "do not murder" is not false. It is a true shadow of the full meaning of the law.
HTH
Without The Ten Commandments ...
T.A.Lewis said...
Hey Ray,
Since humans wouldn't know what is wrong without the Ten Commandments, why did God punish Cain for killing Abel?
I mean, apparently killing wasn't wrong until God zapped the Ten Commandments down on the slabs of rock. Right?
@T.A.Lewis
Wrong. You seem to have skipped over a couple of verses, Genesis 4:6-7.
God tells Cain that he has the capacity to know and the freedom to choose to "do what is right" or "do not do what is right".
If you recall, the Ten Commandments were spoken to the Children of Israel, not to the Gentiles. (cf. Exodus 20). The Ten Commandments were first spoken, and then later engraved on stone tablets for the Jews.
Even though the Gentiles were not given the Ten Commandments, God says that the Gentiles know them, because God's law is written in their hearts:
"Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right." Romans 2:14-15 (NLT)
The story of creation reveals that man was created in God's own image, in the likeness of God. One aspect of our "likeness" with God is our God-given conscience, which informs of us right and wrong. Obviously, man was not created omnipotent or omniscient. But, in the likeness of God, we find ourselves with some degree of capacity for free will, power, and knowledge.
HTH
Hey Ray,
Since humans wouldn't know what is wrong without the Ten Commandments, why did God punish Cain for killing Abel?
I mean, apparently killing wasn't wrong until God zapped the Ten Commandments down on the slabs of rock. Right?
@T.A.Lewis
Wrong. You seem to have skipped over a couple of verses, Genesis 4:6-7.
God tells Cain that he has the capacity to know and the freedom to choose to "do what is right" or "do not do what is right".
If you recall, the Ten Commandments were spoken to the Children of Israel, not to the Gentiles. (cf. Exodus 20). The Ten Commandments were first spoken, and then later engraved on stone tablets for the Jews.
Even though the Gentiles were not given the Ten Commandments, God says that the Gentiles know them, because God's law is written in their hearts:
"Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right." Romans 2:14-15 (NLT)
The story of creation reveals that man was created in God's own image, in the likeness of God. One aspect of our "likeness" with God is our God-given conscience, which informs of us right and wrong. Obviously, man was not created omnipotent or omniscient. But, in the likeness of God, we find ourselves with some degree of capacity for free will, power, and knowledge.
HTH
Tenth Commandment
Rabbitpirate said...
The question was Why are wives listed with things like oxen, houses, asses, which are property?
Ray did not answer this question, he simply claimed that it is not the case.
And yet many verse can be found the fully support the idea of women as property.
@Rabbitpirate
Yes, that was part of the original question. But, actually, the question goes on to suggest that what the Bible is teaching that wives are considered property, because "wives" are listed in the tenth commandment. (That crux of the question was not really a question, but was really an assertion that the Bible says something.)
And Ray did, in fact, address the question, primarily by addressing the assertion.
Perhaps I can offer you a more thorough answer.
The tenth commandment prohibits "coveting". Let's review.
cov·et
(v.t.) to feel blameworthy desire for (that which is another's).
(v.i.) to feel immoderate desire for that which is another's.
(v.t.) to desire (what belongs to another) inordinately or culpably.
The thrust of the commandment is prohibiting a condition of one's heart. The commandment says:
You shall not covet.
The commandment does go on to clarify the meaning of the word "covet".
You shall not covet ... ANYTHING that belongs to your neighbor.
That is, you shall not covet ANYTHING that DOES NOT BELONG to you and BELONGS to someone else.
The commandment lists some specific things that DO NOT BELONG to you: your neighbor's house and your neighbor's wife.
So, does the fact that your neighbor's car and your neighbors daughter are not in the list, that it's okay to covet them? Obviously not.
The commandment prohibits you from desiring anything that doesn't belong to you and that legitimately belongs to someone else.
That's the point. That's what God is saying in the tenth commandment.
---
The purpose of the obtuse question, of course, is to distract us from what God is saying. The intent of the question is to twist Scripture, and to make us think the Bible says something that it doesn't say.
The question implies (mistakenly) that the Bible declares that a wife is considered property.
This implication is plainly wrong. As Ray already answered, this accusation against the Bible is spurious and sorely unfounded.
The Bible, in fact, does not teach that a wife is property, your unsupported claim of "many verse" notwithstanding.
The tenth commandment DOES NOT say that a wife is property, or is owned. The commandment lists "your neighbor's wife" as something you should not have a desire for.
The question was Why are wives listed with things like oxen, houses, asses, which are property?
Ray did not answer this question, he simply claimed that it is not the case.
And yet many verse can be found the fully support the idea of women as property.
@Rabbitpirate
Yes, that was part of the original question. But, actually, the question goes on to suggest that what the Bible is teaching that wives are considered property, because "wives" are listed in the tenth commandment. (That crux of the question was not really a question, but was really an assertion that the Bible says something.)
And Ray did, in fact, address the question, primarily by addressing the assertion.
Perhaps I can offer you a more thorough answer.
The tenth commandment prohibits "coveting". Let's review.
cov·et
(v.t.) to feel blameworthy desire for (that which is another's).
(v.i.) to feel immoderate desire for that which is another's.
(v.t.) to desire (what belongs to another) inordinately or culpably.
The thrust of the commandment is prohibiting a condition of one's heart. The commandment says:
You shall not covet.
The commandment does go on to clarify the meaning of the word "covet".
You shall not covet ... ANYTHING that belongs to your neighbor.
That is, you shall not covet ANYTHING that DOES NOT BELONG to you and BELONGS to someone else.
The commandment lists some specific things that DO NOT BELONG to you: your neighbor's house and your neighbor's wife.
So, does the fact that your neighbor's car and your neighbors daughter are not in the list, that it's okay to covet them? Obviously not.
The commandment prohibits you from desiring anything that doesn't belong to you and that legitimately belongs to someone else.
That's the point. That's what God is saying in the tenth commandment.
---
The purpose of the obtuse question, of course, is to distract us from what God is saying. The intent of the question is to twist Scripture, and to make us think the Bible says something that it doesn't say.
The question implies (mistakenly) that the Bible declares that a wife is considered property.
This implication is plainly wrong. As Ray already answered, this accusation against the Bible is spurious and sorely unfounded.
The Bible, in fact, does not teach that a wife is property, your unsupported claim of "many verse" notwithstanding.
The tenth commandment DOES NOT say that a wife is property, or is owned. The commandment lists "your neighbor's wife" as something you should not have a desire for.
Wednesday, June 30, 2010
What's Best For Us
@Chris B
Again, good questions.
The response I gave was only an outline, and only hit a few points.
From a Christian perspective (already assuming some fundamental Christian beliefs) there really is a simpler, over-arching answer:
God knows what's best for us, and God intends what is best for us.
It is God's design that man and woman be joined, and become one, within a marriage. (What God has joined, let no man put asunder.) When man and woman are married, they are no longer separate, but become one. (That's the language the Bible uses, not something I'm making up.)
God intends for sex to be reserved for use as a "glue" that holds the marriage bond together.
It's against God's design to use that special "glue" for other purposes.
Let me offer a really weak analogy:
A flashlight is designed to give light. We can choose to use the flashlight for its intended purpose, or we can choose to use the flashlight for something else, like driving nails, using it as a hammer.
While a flashlight may work suitably as a hammer, it's not what the flashlight was designed for.
While sex may work suitably outside of a marriage, it's not what God designed sex for.
Using sex for a purpose other than what is was intended for is akin to using a flashlight as a hammer.
(I know that's a really weak analogy, but it's what I've got right now.)
And I know this answer isn't going to make much sense outside of a Christian worldview... it assumes fundamental beliefs of the Christian faith...
But maybe it helps explain a little better how Christians view the issue of sex and marriage.
HTH
spencer7593: And I know this answer isn't going to make much sense outside of a Christian worldview... it assumes fundamental beliefs of the Christian faith...
But maybe it helps explain a little better how Christians view the issue of sex and marriage.
This does explain how Christians view sex and marriage, thank you. However, I wasn't asking so much what Christians think as what Christians believe God thinks (and why).
Even with all of the explanation you've been kind enough to offer, it still doesn't make sense to me why God would feel the need or desire to create such strict and arbitrary rules deciding which sexual encounters are spiritually rich bonding experiences of love, and which are dirty, sinful, shameful sins; indeed, I don't see why any sexual relationship between informed, consenting, mutually loving adults should be considered the latter. And I especially don't see why such issues are of concern to God when the world is so full of violence, war, hatred, poverty, sickness, etc.
That having been said, thank you very much for your response.
Again, good questions.
The response I gave was only an outline, and only hit a few points.
From a Christian perspective (already assuming some fundamental Christian beliefs) there really is a simpler, over-arching answer:
God knows what's best for us, and God intends what is best for us.
It is God's design that man and woman be joined, and become one, within a marriage. (What God has joined, let no man put asunder.) When man and woman are married, they are no longer separate, but become one. (That's the language the Bible uses, not something I'm making up.)
God intends for sex to be reserved for use as a "glue" that holds the marriage bond together.
It's against God's design to use that special "glue" for other purposes.
Let me offer a really weak analogy:
A flashlight is designed to give light. We can choose to use the flashlight for its intended purpose, or we can choose to use the flashlight for something else, like driving nails, using it as a hammer.
While a flashlight may work suitably as a hammer, it's not what the flashlight was designed for.
While sex may work suitably outside of a marriage, it's not what God designed sex for.
Using sex for a purpose other than what is was intended for is akin to using a flashlight as a hammer.
(I know that's a really weak analogy, but it's what I've got right now.)
And I know this answer isn't going to make much sense outside of a Christian worldview... it assumes fundamental beliefs of the Christian faith...
But maybe it helps explain a little better how Christians view the issue of sex and marriage.
HTH
spencer7593: And I know this answer isn't going to make much sense outside of a Christian worldview... it assumes fundamental beliefs of the Christian faith...
But maybe it helps explain a little better how Christians view the issue of sex and marriage.
This does explain how Christians view sex and marriage, thank you. However, I wasn't asking so much what Christians think as what Christians believe God thinks (and why).
Even with all of the explanation you've been kind enough to offer, it still doesn't make sense to me why God would feel the need or desire to create such strict and arbitrary rules deciding which sexual encounters are spiritually rich bonding experiences of love, and which are dirty, sinful, shameful sins; indeed, I don't see why any sexual relationship between informed, consenting, mutually loving adults should be considered the latter. And I especially don't see why such issues are of concern to God when the world is so full of violence, war, hatred, poverty, sickness, etc.
That having been said, thank you very much for your response.
Singling Out
MVP asked...
Why the singling out of homosexuals for death when, as you believe, ALL 'sexual immorality' is condoned as a sin?
@MVP
You, and many others, are wrong about this. The truth is that the Bible does not "single out" out homosexuals for death.
Your question reveals something about you MVP. Either you are ignorant of what the Bible says and don't care to learn. Or, you are purposefully deceitful, and choose to mislead people with your wrong teaching.
The Law of Moses was handed down only to the the descendants of Jacob, and was not given to non-Jews:
"For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession." Deuteronomy 7:6
God calls for the Jewish tribe to set themselves apart from everyone else for God's special purpose:
"You are to be holy to me because I, the LORD, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own." Leviticus 20:26
God calls for them to set themselves apart, and to be clean and pure:
"For I am the Lord your God. You must consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy. So do not defile yourselves " Leviticus 11:44
All of the rituals of the Levitical priesthood, the prescribed sacrifices and ritual washings, the entirety of the Law of Moses can be summed up, all of them serving a single purpose, in a few short words:
"keep yourselves pure"
Because a "little bit of sin" is like a "little bit of yeast" that permeates the whole loaf, the descendants of Jacob (the Jews) were not to allow sin to abide within them. This was important to God, that sin be purged, removed, cast out and kept out.
Yes, the penalty for sin within the tribe of Israel was severe. Let's review penalties of some of the offenses:
for blasphemy: DEATH
for committing adultery: DEATH.
for gathering firewood on Saturday: DEATH.
for rejecting the verdict of a judge: DEATH
for witchcraft: DEATH
for a bride found not to be a virgin: DEATH
for striking one's mother or father: DEATH
for going near the tabernacle: DEATH
for fortunetelling: DEATH
for cursing one's mother or father: DEATH
These penalties were severe. The purpose of the penalties wasn't just punishment of the individual.
The ultimate purpose was to purge sin from Israel. Sin was not to be tolerated, or allowed to abide within the tribe.
"Such evil must be purged from Israel." Deuteronomy 17:12 (NLT)
"'I will set my face against the person ... and I will cut him off from his people." Leviticus 20:6
Any and all sin was to be cut off, to be cast away and kept out of the tribe. There is not "singling out" of homosexuals for death. Homosexual behavior within the tribe of Israel (according to God's word) was not accorded any special penalty.
You can choose to rail against God's morality. You can complain at the harshness of the penalties. You can resent that God identifies things as right and wrong.
You are free to choose. But you are not free to choose the consequences of your choice.
Why the singling out of homosexuals for death when, as you believe, ALL 'sexual immorality' is condoned as a sin?
@MVP
You, and many others, are wrong about this. The truth is that the Bible does not "single out" out homosexuals for death.
Your question reveals something about you MVP. Either you are ignorant of what the Bible says and don't care to learn. Or, you are purposefully deceitful, and choose to mislead people with your wrong teaching.
The Law of Moses was handed down only to the the descendants of Jacob, and was not given to non-Jews:
"For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession." Deuteronomy 7:6
God calls for the Jewish tribe to set themselves apart from everyone else for God's special purpose:
"You are to be holy to me because I, the LORD, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own." Leviticus 20:26
God calls for them to set themselves apart, and to be clean and pure:
"For I am the Lord your God. You must consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy. So do not defile yourselves " Leviticus 11:44
All of the rituals of the Levitical priesthood, the prescribed sacrifices and ritual washings, the entirety of the Law of Moses can be summed up, all of them serving a single purpose, in a few short words:
"keep yourselves pure"
Because a "little bit of sin" is like a "little bit of yeast" that permeates the whole loaf, the descendants of Jacob (the Jews) were not to allow sin to abide within them. This was important to God, that sin be purged, removed, cast out and kept out.
Yes, the penalty for sin within the tribe of Israel was severe. Let's review penalties of some of the offenses:
for blasphemy: DEATH
for committing adultery: DEATH.
for gathering firewood on Saturday: DEATH.
for rejecting the verdict of a judge: DEATH
for witchcraft: DEATH
for a bride found not to be a virgin: DEATH
for striking one's mother or father: DEATH
for going near the tabernacle: DEATH
for fortunetelling: DEATH
for cursing one's mother or father: DEATH
These penalties were severe. The purpose of the penalties wasn't just punishment of the individual.
The ultimate purpose was to purge sin from Israel. Sin was not to be tolerated, or allowed to abide within the tribe.
"Such evil must be purged from Israel." Deuteronomy 17:12 (NLT)
"'I will set my face against the person ... and I will cut him off from his people." Leviticus 20:6
Any and all sin was to be cut off, to be cast away and kept out of the tribe. There is not "singling out" of homosexuals for death. Homosexual behavior within the tribe of Israel (according to God's word) was not accorded any special penalty.
You can choose to rail against God's morality. You can complain at the harshness of the penalties. You can resent that God identifies things as right and wrong.
You are free to choose. But you are not free to choose the consequences of your choice.
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