@Chris B
Again, good questions.
The response I gave was only an outline, and only hit a few points.
From a Christian perspective (already assuming some fundamental Christian beliefs) there really is a simpler, over-arching answer:
God knows what's best for us, and God intends what is best for us.
It is God's design that man and woman be joined, and become one, within a marriage. (What God has joined, let no man put asunder.) When man and woman are married, they are no longer separate, but become one. (That's the language the Bible uses, not something I'm making up.)
God intends for sex to be reserved for use as a "glue" that holds the marriage bond together.
It's against God's design to use that special "glue" for other purposes.
Let me offer a really weak analogy:
A flashlight is designed to give light. We can choose to use the flashlight for its intended purpose, or we can choose to use the flashlight for something else, like driving nails, using it as a hammer.
While a flashlight may work suitably as a hammer, it's not what the flashlight was designed for.
While sex may work suitably outside of a marriage, it's not what God designed sex for.
Using sex for a purpose other than what is was intended for is akin to using a flashlight as a hammer.
(I know that's a really weak analogy, but it's what I've got right now.)
And I know this answer isn't going to make much sense outside of a Christian worldview... it assumes fundamental beliefs of the Christian faith...
But maybe it helps explain a little better how Christians view the issue of sex and marriage.
HTH
spencer7593: And I know this answer isn't going to make much sense outside of a Christian worldview... it assumes fundamental beliefs of the Christian faith...
But maybe it helps explain a little better how Christians view the issue of sex and marriage.
This does explain how Christians view sex and marriage, thank you. However, I wasn't asking so much what Christians think as what Christians believe God thinks (and why).
Even with all of the explanation you've been kind enough to offer, it still doesn't make sense to me why God would feel the need or desire to create such strict and arbitrary rules deciding which sexual encounters are spiritually rich bonding experiences of love, and which are dirty, sinful, shameful sins; indeed, I don't see why any sexual relationship between informed, consenting, mutually loving adults should be considered the latter. And I especially don't see why such issues are of concern to God when the world is so full of violence, war, hatred, poverty, sickness, etc.
That having been said, thank you very much for your response.
Wednesday, June 30, 2010
Singling Out
MVP asked...
Why the singling out of homosexuals for death when, as you believe, ALL 'sexual immorality' is condoned as a sin?
@MVP
You, and many others, are wrong about this. The truth is that the Bible does not "single out" out homosexuals for death.
Your question reveals something about you MVP. Either you are ignorant of what the Bible says and don't care to learn. Or, you are purposefully deceitful, and choose to mislead people with your wrong teaching.
The Law of Moses was handed down only to the the descendants of Jacob, and was not given to non-Jews:
"For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession." Deuteronomy 7:6
God calls for the Jewish tribe to set themselves apart from everyone else for God's special purpose:
"You are to be holy to me because I, the LORD, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own." Leviticus 20:26
God calls for them to set themselves apart, and to be clean and pure:
"For I am the Lord your God. You must consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy. So do not defile yourselves " Leviticus 11:44
All of the rituals of the Levitical priesthood, the prescribed sacrifices and ritual washings, the entirety of the Law of Moses can be summed up, all of them serving a single purpose, in a few short words:
"keep yourselves pure"
Because a "little bit of sin" is like a "little bit of yeast" that permeates the whole loaf, the descendants of Jacob (the Jews) were not to allow sin to abide within them. This was important to God, that sin be purged, removed, cast out and kept out.
Yes, the penalty for sin within the tribe of Israel was severe. Let's review penalties of some of the offenses:
for blasphemy: DEATH
for committing adultery: DEATH.
for gathering firewood on Saturday: DEATH.
for rejecting the verdict of a judge: DEATH
for witchcraft: DEATH
for a bride found not to be a virgin: DEATH
for striking one's mother or father: DEATH
for going near the tabernacle: DEATH
for fortunetelling: DEATH
for cursing one's mother or father: DEATH
These penalties were severe. The purpose of the penalties wasn't just punishment of the individual.
The ultimate purpose was to purge sin from Israel. Sin was not to be tolerated, or allowed to abide within the tribe.
"Such evil must be purged from Israel." Deuteronomy 17:12 (NLT)
"'I will set my face against the person ... and I will cut him off from his people." Leviticus 20:6
Any and all sin was to be cut off, to be cast away and kept out of the tribe. There is not "singling out" of homosexuals for death. Homosexual behavior within the tribe of Israel (according to God's word) was not accorded any special penalty.
You can choose to rail against God's morality. You can complain at the harshness of the penalties. You can resent that God identifies things as right and wrong.
You are free to choose. But you are not free to choose the consequences of your choice.
Why the singling out of homosexuals for death when, as you believe, ALL 'sexual immorality' is condoned as a sin?
@MVP
You, and many others, are wrong about this. The truth is that the Bible does not "single out" out homosexuals for death.
Your question reveals something about you MVP. Either you are ignorant of what the Bible says and don't care to learn. Or, you are purposefully deceitful, and choose to mislead people with your wrong teaching.
The Law of Moses was handed down only to the the descendants of Jacob, and was not given to non-Jews:
"For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession." Deuteronomy 7:6
God calls for the Jewish tribe to set themselves apart from everyone else for God's special purpose:
"You are to be holy to me because I, the LORD, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own." Leviticus 20:26
God calls for them to set themselves apart, and to be clean and pure:
"For I am the Lord your God. You must consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy. So do not defile yourselves " Leviticus 11:44
All of the rituals of the Levitical priesthood, the prescribed sacrifices and ritual washings, the entirety of the Law of Moses can be summed up, all of them serving a single purpose, in a few short words:
"keep yourselves pure"
Because a "little bit of sin" is like a "little bit of yeast" that permeates the whole loaf, the descendants of Jacob (the Jews) were not to allow sin to abide within them. This was important to God, that sin be purged, removed, cast out and kept out.
Yes, the penalty for sin within the tribe of Israel was severe. Let's review penalties of some of the offenses:
for blasphemy: DEATH
for committing adultery: DEATH.
for gathering firewood on Saturday: DEATH.
for rejecting the verdict of a judge: DEATH
for witchcraft: DEATH
for a bride found not to be a virgin: DEATH
for striking one's mother or father: DEATH
for going near the tabernacle: DEATH
for fortunetelling: DEATH
for cursing one's mother or father: DEATH
These penalties were severe. The purpose of the penalties wasn't just punishment of the individual.
The ultimate purpose was to purge sin from Israel. Sin was not to be tolerated, or allowed to abide within the tribe.
"Such evil must be purged from Israel." Deuteronomy 17:12 (NLT)
"'I will set my face against the person ... and I will cut him off from his people." Leviticus 20:6
Any and all sin was to be cut off, to be cast away and kept out of the tribe. There is not "singling out" of homosexuals for death. Homosexual behavior within the tribe of Israel (according to God's word) was not accorded any special penalty.
You can choose to rail against God's morality. You can complain at the harshness of the penalties. You can resent that God identifies things as right and wrong.
You are free to choose. But you are not free to choose the consequences of your choice.
Thou Shalt Not Lust
James Romance says...
The Bible does not say, "Thou shalt not lust", in real life it only says, "Thou shalt not commit adultery". Christians twist Jesus' words around in Matt 5:27-28 to mean "Thou shalt not lust" when the context demonstrates that Jesus clearly meant it for married people, since single people who have sex with other single people, by definition are not committing adultery. Get a clue, Christians, duh!
@James Romance
As you note, Jesus "fills out" the commandment to its fuller meaning. It's not just the physical act that the Bible prohibits, but the sinful condition of the heart.
Yes, there are two different but related sins identified in the Bible. As you identified, one is "adultery", which literally means "breaking the marriage". This sin involves a married person having sex with someone other than their spouse.
The other sexual sin the Bible identifies is "fornication". (Gk. porneia, from which we derive the English word pornography)
Paul instructs us:
"Flee fornication." 1 Corinthians 6:18 (ASV)
So what is fornication?
Sexual intercourse between partners who are not married to each other.
The Bible goes on to identify all sorts of sexual perversion which is abhorrent to God.
Bottom line, the Bible teaches that sex between a man and a woman who are married to each other is moral. And it teaches that any other sex is immoral.
I believe the instructions God gives regarding "sex" have more to do with how important God views marriage, than it does about the importance of sex.
You chide Christians to "get a clue" about what the Bible teaches. Yet your own study of the Bible seems to be quite lacking.
Have you studied what the Bible has to say about the punishment that awaits those who present false teaching from the Bible, and leading people astray from the truth?
The Bible does not say, "Thou shalt not lust", in real life it only says, "Thou shalt not commit adultery". Christians twist Jesus' words around in Matt 5:27-28 to mean "Thou shalt not lust" when the context demonstrates that Jesus clearly meant it for married people, since single people who have sex with other single people, by definition are not committing adultery. Get a clue, Christians, duh!
@James Romance
As you note, Jesus "fills out" the commandment to its fuller meaning. It's not just the physical act that the Bible prohibits, but the sinful condition of the heart.
Yes, there are two different but related sins identified in the Bible. As you identified, one is "adultery", which literally means "breaking the marriage". This sin involves a married person having sex with someone other than their spouse.
The other sexual sin the Bible identifies is "fornication". (Gk. porneia, from which we derive the English word pornography)
Paul instructs us:
"Flee fornication." 1 Corinthians 6:18 (ASV)
So what is fornication?
Sexual intercourse between partners who are not married to each other.
The Bible goes on to identify all sorts of sexual perversion which is abhorrent to God.
Bottom line, the Bible teaches that sex between a man and a woman who are married to each other is moral. And it teaches that any other sex is immoral.
I believe the instructions God gives regarding "sex" have more to do with how important God views marriage, than it does about the importance of sex.
You chide Christians to "get a clue" about what the Bible teaches. Yet your own study of the Bible seems to be quite lacking.
Have you studied what the Bible has to say about the punishment that awaits those who present false teaching from the Bible, and leading people astray from the truth?
The Replacement Set
@Steven J
I'm not at all sure why these passages present you with such difficulty. The text is quite clear.
God engraves the Ten Commandments on two stone tablets. Twice. The second time is to create a REPLACEMENT set for the first set, which was broken. On the second set of stone tablets, God again engraves the SAME WORDS that were on the first set.
Exodus 34:1
The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I [the LORD] will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.
Deuteronomy 10:1-2
At that time the LORD said to me, 'Cut for yourself two tablets of stone like the first, and come up to me on the mountain ... And I [the LORD] will write on the tablets the words that were on the first tablets that you broke
The LORD writes on the tablets, not Moses. The LORD first speaks these words
Exodus 20:1
And God spoke all these words, (the ten commandments)
God then goes on to give Moses all sorts of commandments and regulations, and tells Moses to write them down.
Nowhere in the text does it say that God engraved all of those commandments and regulations in stone. And nowhere in the text does it say that Moses engraves anything in stone.
The text says that God engraves in stone, and Moses writes down.
Both times.
God engraves the Ten Commandments, and Moses writes down everything.
Exodus 24:4
And Moses wrote down all the words of the LORD.
Exodus 32:15-16
Then Moses turned and went down from the mountain with the two tablets of the testimony in his hand, tablets that were written on both sides; on the front and on the back they were written. The tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, engraved on the tablets.
Exodus 31:18
When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.
You are not reading the text clearly. Granted, the translation from the ancient Hebrew to modern English does present some difficulty.
Review the text again, carefully, Steven. It clearly says who does the writing of which words.
Again, I'm not sure why these passages give you difficulty. ALL of these words that written down (by God and by Moses) were spoken by God.
God could have chosen to engrave ALL of the words on stone tablets. (All of those words would not have fit on two stone tablets, so Moses would have presumably needed to carry more than two), and probably needed to make several trips up and down the mountain to transport the all of the stone.
God could have chosen to let Moses write everything down, and not engraved anything on stone tablets at all.
Or God could have written everything down on papyrus scrolls himself, rather than have Moses do any writing.
In any case, ALL of the words were words SPOKEN by God, and ALL of the words that were engraved in stone and written down on scrolls were words from God.
What's not clear, Steven, is why it is so important to you to insist that God engraved something DIFFERENT on the REPLACEMENT set of stone tablets, when Exodus 34:1 clearly says that the words engraved by God were the same words engraved by God on the first set.
I'm not at all sure why these passages present you with such difficulty. The text is quite clear.
God engraves the Ten Commandments on two stone tablets. Twice. The second time is to create a REPLACEMENT set for the first set, which was broken. On the second set of stone tablets, God again engraves the SAME WORDS that were on the first set.
Exodus 34:1
The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I [the LORD] will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.
Deuteronomy 10:1-2
At that time the LORD said to me, 'Cut for yourself two tablets of stone like the first, and come up to me on the mountain ... And I [the LORD] will write on the tablets the words that were on the first tablets that you broke
The LORD writes on the tablets, not Moses. The LORD first speaks these words
Exodus 20:1
And God spoke all these words, (the ten commandments)
God then goes on to give Moses all sorts of commandments and regulations, and tells Moses to write them down.
Nowhere in the text does it say that God engraved all of those commandments and regulations in stone. And nowhere in the text does it say that Moses engraves anything in stone.
The text says that God engraves in stone, and Moses writes down.
Both times.
God engraves the Ten Commandments, and Moses writes down everything.
Exodus 24:4
And Moses wrote down all the words of the LORD.
Exodus 32:15-16
Then Moses turned and went down from the mountain with the two tablets of the testimony in his hand, tablets that were written on both sides; on the front and on the back they were written. The tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, engraved on the tablets.
Exodus 31:18
When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.
You are not reading the text clearly. Granted, the translation from the ancient Hebrew to modern English does present some difficulty.
Review the text again, carefully, Steven. It clearly says who does the writing of which words.
Again, I'm not sure why these passages give you difficulty. ALL of these words that written down (by God and by Moses) were spoken by God.
God could have chosen to engrave ALL of the words on stone tablets. (All of those words would not have fit on two stone tablets, so Moses would have presumably needed to carry more than two), and probably needed to make several trips up and down the mountain to transport the all of the stone.
God could have chosen to let Moses write everything down, and not engraved anything on stone tablets at all.
Or God could have written everything down on papyrus scrolls himself, rather than have Moses do any writing.
In any case, ALL of the words were words SPOKEN by God, and ALL of the words that were engraved in stone and written down on scrolls were words from God.
What's not clear, Steven, is why it is so important to you to insist that God engraved something DIFFERENT on the REPLACEMENT set of stone tablets, when Exodus 34:1 clearly says that the words engraved by God were the same words engraved by God on the first set.
Monday, June 28, 2010
The Scale Of Sin
MVP asked...
Either there is a 'scale of sin' or there isn't. Which is it Spencer...
... you ignore this and still say that you are moral.
@MVP
I'm more concerned about what the Bible says than any of the wrong ideas you have to share, MVP.
Given your illustrious track record of twisting Scripture and distorting what God says, it really comes as no surprise that you are so confused.
The Bible reveals that God HATES all sin. The Bible clearly teaches that ALL sins, large and small, are abhorrent to God.
The Bible teaches that I am to avoid sin, because even the smallest bit of sin makes me impure. It makes me unrighteous, and separates me from God.
"We are all infected and impure with sin.
When we display our righteous deeds,
they are nothing but filthy rags.
Like autumn leaves, we wither and fall,
and our sins sweep us away like the wind." -- Isaiah 64:6 (NLT)
Any good thing that I do is utterly useless to make me right with God. Even my best and most noble works ultimately fail at earning me righteousness.
Jesus compares sin to yeast, in that even a tiny amount of yeast will permeate an entire batch of dough. Likewise, even the tiniest hint of sin taints the entirety of my life.
The Bible teaches that sin cannot be compartmentalized, or kept restricted to just one area of my life. Even the smallest sin makes all of me impure before God.
In terms of measuring sin, or measuring my righteousness, there is no meaningful scale.
The only measurement that matters is whether or not I am separated from God.
This is not something I made up, MVP. I'm not putting words into God's mouth. This is what the Bible teaches.
God's perfect justice demands a verdict and requires a penalty. I deserve just punishment for my sin.
I made no claim of being moral, MVP. That silly notion is your own invention. The Bible is not the source of morality, MVP. That wrong idea is a product of your own wrong thinking.
The truth is that God Almighty alone is the author and judge of morality.
God alone is the one that decides that taking an innocent life is wrong. God alone is the judge of what is right and what is wrong.
But you choose to ignore this simple truth, and instead choose to author your own morality, apart from God, under the authority of your own righteousness.
Don't presume that I play your dark game, MVP. I am not enticed by your wrong thinking, which will ultimately lead to your utter destruction.
I choose my own path, MVP. Not blindly and not unthinkingly. I use the light I have been given, and choose to follow the narrow path that leads to life, rather than destruction.
Either there is a 'scale of sin' or there isn't. Which is it Spencer...
... you ignore this and still say that you are moral.
@MVP
I'm more concerned about what the Bible says than any of the wrong ideas you have to share, MVP.
Given your illustrious track record of twisting Scripture and distorting what God says, it really comes as no surprise that you are so confused.
The Bible reveals that God HATES all sin. The Bible clearly teaches that ALL sins, large and small, are abhorrent to God.
The Bible teaches that I am to avoid sin, because even the smallest bit of sin makes me impure. It makes me unrighteous, and separates me from God.
"We are all infected and impure with sin.
When we display our righteous deeds,
they are nothing but filthy rags.
Like autumn leaves, we wither and fall,
and our sins sweep us away like the wind." -- Isaiah 64:6 (NLT)
Any good thing that I do is utterly useless to make me right with God. Even my best and most noble works ultimately fail at earning me righteousness.
Jesus compares sin to yeast, in that even a tiny amount of yeast will permeate an entire batch of dough. Likewise, even the tiniest hint of sin taints the entirety of my life.
The Bible teaches that sin cannot be compartmentalized, or kept restricted to just one area of my life. Even the smallest sin makes all of me impure before God.
In terms of measuring sin, or measuring my righteousness, there is no meaningful scale.
The only measurement that matters is whether or not I am separated from God.
This is not something I made up, MVP. I'm not putting words into God's mouth. This is what the Bible teaches.
God's perfect justice demands a verdict and requires a penalty. I deserve just punishment for my sin.
I made no claim of being moral, MVP. That silly notion is your own invention. The Bible is not the source of morality, MVP. That wrong idea is a product of your own wrong thinking.
The truth is that God Almighty alone is the author and judge of morality.
God alone is the one that decides that taking an innocent life is wrong. God alone is the judge of what is right and what is wrong.
But you choose to ignore this simple truth, and instead choose to author your own morality, apart from God, under the authority of your own righteousness.
Don't presume that I play your dark game, MVP. I am not enticed by your wrong thinking, which will ultimately lead to your utter destruction.
I choose my own path, MVP. Not blindly and not unthinkingly. I use the light I have been given, and choose to follow the narrow path that leads to life, rather than destruction.
Saturday, June 26, 2010
Why Is God So Hung Up
Chris B asked...
Why is God so hung up on Do's and Don't's of sex? I would think He has bigger things to worry about.
@Chris B
That's an excellent question. Why would God be concerned about sex, why should that be any concern to Him?
When we study the Bible, we find that God IS concerned about it, The Bible addresses the issue in numerous places. Jesus himself addresses sex and sexuality.
So we can be pretty sure that this topic IS of some importance to God.
From our study of the Bible, we know that God does not hate sex, and that God does not expect us to live lives without any sex.
We do find that God has some pretty explicit parameters, some specific boundaries and guidelines.
Marriage is important to God, because it creates an environment that is ideal for raising children.
Reserving sex within the marriage PROTECTS the marriage from the harmful consequences of illicit sex.
Sex outside of marriage can lead to lust (idolatry) and addictive behavior. It also increases the chance for sexually transmitted diseases.
Sex creates powerful bonds between a couple, physically, emotionally and spiritually.
Sex is an area of our lives where we can choose to honor God, and obey his commands. When we choose to be disobedient, we dishonor God, and open the door for all sorts of evil and mischief.
That's a short outline, a few key points.
I think all of these are of significant importance to God. What "bigger things" do you think God should be more concerned with?
You also asked about sexual behavior within a marriage. There are some gray areas there. I'm not going to speak to whether or not God approves of sadomasochism within a marriage, I think that's up to the man and the woman to decide for themselves.
HTH
Why is God so hung up on Do's and Don't's of sex? I would think He has bigger things to worry about.
@Chris B
That's an excellent question. Why would God be concerned about sex, why should that be any concern to Him?
When we study the Bible, we find that God IS concerned about it, The Bible addresses the issue in numerous places. Jesus himself addresses sex and sexuality.
So we can be pretty sure that this topic IS of some importance to God.
From our study of the Bible, we know that God does not hate sex, and that God does not expect us to live lives without any sex.
We do find that God has some pretty explicit parameters, some specific boundaries and guidelines.
Marriage is important to God, because it creates an environment that is ideal for raising children.
Reserving sex within the marriage PROTECTS the marriage from the harmful consequences of illicit sex.
Sex outside of marriage can lead to lust (idolatry) and addictive behavior. It also increases the chance for sexually transmitted diseases.
Sex creates powerful bonds between a couple, physically, emotionally and spiritually.
Sex is an area of our lives where we can choose to honor God, and obey his commands. When we choose to be disobedient, we dishonor God, and open the door for all sorts of evil and mischief.
That's a short outline, a few key points.
I think all of these are of significant importance to God. What "bigger things" do you think God should be more concerned with?
You also asked about sexual behavior within a marriage. There are some gray areas there. I'm not going to speak to whether or not God approves of sadomasochism within a marriage, I think that's up to the man and the woman to decide for themselves.
HTH
Tuesday, June 15, 2010
Is vulgarity a sin?
Rabbitpirate asks:
"Where in the Bible does it say that vulgarity is a sin?"
@Rabbitpirate,
(Just in case you were actually seeking an answer to your question...)
Let's be clear. There is no sin in the inelegance of an expression.
Where the sin lies in the condition of a man's heart, his inner being. (Romans 7:22 cf. Luke 6:45) The sin is in the malicious intent behind an expression. (cf. Matthew 5:22) The sin is in a cruel disregard for others. (cf. Philippians 2:3)
"Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen." Ephesians 4:29 (NIV)
"Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear." Ephesians 4:29 (ESV)
"Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love." Ephesians 4:2 (NIV)
The Bible teaches that followers have freedom in Christ. But it also cautions that followers need to exercise those freedoms with great care. (cf. 1 Corinthians 8:9). Followers especially need to exercise control over their words. (cf. James 3)
"For whoever desires to love life and see good days, let him keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking deceit" 1 Peter 3:10 (ESV) (cf. Psalm 34:12-16)
HTH
"Where in the Bible does it say that vulgarity is a sin?"
@Rabbitpirate,
(Just in case you were actually seeking an answer to your question...)
Let's be clear. There is no sin in the inelegance of an expression.
Where the sin lies in the condition of a man's heart, his inner being. (Romans 7:22 cf. Luke 6:45) The sin is in the malicious intent behind an expression. (cf. Matthew 5:22) The sin is in a cruel disregard for others. (cf. Philippians 2:3)
"Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen." Ephesians 4:29 (NIV)
"Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear." Ephesians 4:29 (ESV)
"Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love." Ephesians 4:2 (NIV)
The Bible teaches that followers have freedom in Christ. But it also cautions that followers need to exercise those freedoms with great care. (cf. 1 Corinthians 8:9). Followers especially need to exercise control over their words. (cf. James 3)
"For whoever desires to love life and see good days, let him keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking deceit" 1 Peter 3:10 (ESV) (cf. Psalm 34:12-16)
HTH
Wednesday, June 2, 2010
Making Vows
Charles, you make some very good points. I do take small exception to one of your statements:
I don't find in Scripture that we are instructed "never to make promises to God". I just don't find it. Scripture warns me to be careful in making a promise to God. But it doesn't prohibit it.
Here's the verse immediately prior to the one you quoted,
Ecclesiastes 5:4
That doesn't seem to support the assertion that we are "never to make promises" to God.
I have made a promise to God. On the day I exchanged wedding vows with my spouse, I stood before God, at the altar, and made a solemn promise to Him. My wedding vow is a promise to God. And I don't find any prohibition in scripture against it.
Yes, scripture warns me to exercise caution in making promises to God, to be careful in what I say to God.
Matthew 6:7-8
And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
If I want to find a prohibition in Scripture, I think it would be against "bargaining" with God. When I hear a testimony of someone making a deal with God, alarm bells go off in my head. I'm talking about the type of prayer that goes: "God, if you do [so and so to help me], then I will do [so and so to honor you]"
When I hear that, I get a strong sense that this is NOT the type of conversation God wants to have, not with me. I know God doesn't want to hear me proposing foolish bargains with Him.
I make a choice to honor God simply because He deserves all honor and praise, because He is, after all, the sovereign God. I choose to obey His will because He is king, because He is Lord of all.
When I hear of someone making a deal: "God, IF you do [this] THEN I will do [that]", I can't help hear the logical corollary: "God, IF you DON'T do [this] then I WON'T do [that]." And that is foolishness, plain and simple.
God expects me to do the right thing, no matter the circumstances He allows me to be in. I'm not in a position to blackmail God, to bend His will to mine, by threatening that my attitude and behavior is dependent on whether our sovereign God does what I want Him to do.
So, the prohibition in scripture is against foolishness. But it's not against making an earnest promise to God.
Chris wrote:
Chris,
In the passage you present (Matthew 5:33-37), Jesus seems to be speaking primarily about integrity. He is taking the letter of the law (the rules and regulations of the Old Testament), and is getting to the deeper meaning of the law (the "weightier matters of the law".)
The law says not to murder. In Matthew 5:21-22, Jesus takes the law further. Jesus says that someone who has malicious intent towards a brother is already guilty of murder.
The law says do not commit adultery. In Matthew 5:27-28, Jesus takes law further, and says that anyone who looks at a woman with lust is already guilty of adultery in his heart.
The law says do not break a vow to God or break an oath made before God.
Numbers 30:2
When a man makes a vow to God or binds himself by an oath to do something, he must not break his word; he must do exactly what he has said. (The Message)
In Matthew 5:34-37, Jesus takes the law further, and says that his followers are to be men and women of integrity. Jesus is warning disciples to be honest in all of their words, all of the time. God expects them to keep their word, to do what they say they will do. Jesus is warning them not to dress up anything they say as being "especially honest" or somehow "more truthful" than anything else they say.
Matthew 5:33-37
"And don't say anything you don't mean. This counsel is embedded deep in our traditions. You only make things worse when you lay down a smoke screen of pious talk, saying, 'I'll pray for you,' and never doing it, or saying, 'God be with you,' and not meaning it. You don't make your words true by embellishing them with religious lace. In making your speech sound more religious, it becomes less true. Just say 'yes' and 'no.' When you manipulate words to get your own way, you go wrong. (The Message)
This same idea is echoed in James 5:12
As far as this passage being a "strong injunction not to make oaths" (as you claim), I suppose the passage could be construed that way. But I think that misses the main point of this passage. Everything I say is a promise to God or a promise made before God. He already considers what I say to Him as a vow, and what I say to others as a solemn oath. I see that as the main point of this passage.
We are told in Scripture never to make promises to God, because we will not be able to keep them.
Ecc 5:5: Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay.
I don't find in Scripture that we are instructed "never to make promises to God". I just don't find it. Scripture warns me to be careful in making a promise to God. But it doesn't prohibit it.
Here's the verse immediately prior to the one you quoted,
Ecclesiastes 5:4
When you make a vow to God, do not delay in fulfilling it. He has no pleasure in fools; fulfill your vow.
That doesn't seem to support the assertion that we are "never to make promises" to God.
I have made a promise to God. On the day I exchanged wedding vows with my spouse, I stood before God, at the altar, and made a solemn promise to Him. My wedding vow is a promise to God. And I don't find any prohibition in scripture against it.
Yes, scripture warns me to exercise caution in making promises to God, to be careful in what I say to God.
Matthew 6:7-8
And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
If I want to find a prohibition in Scripture, I think it would be against "bargaining" with God. When I hear a testimony of someone making a deal with God, alarm bells go off in my head. I'm talking about the type of prayer that goes: "God, if you do [so and so to help me], then I will do [so and so to honor you]"
When I hear that, I get a strong sense that this is NOT the type of conversation God wants to have, not with me. I know God doesn't want to hear me proposing foolish bargains with Him.
I make a choice to honor God simply because He deserves all honor and praise, because He is, after all, the sovereign God. I choose to obey His will because He is king, because He is Lord of all.
When I hear of someone making a deal: "God, IF you do [this] THEN I will do [that]", I can't help hear the logical corollary: "God, IF you DON'T do [this] then I WON'T do [that]." And that is foolishness, plain and simple.
God expects me to do the right thing, no matter the circumstances He allows me to be in. I'm not in a position to blackmail God, to bend His will to mine, by threatening that my attitude and behavior is dependent on whether our sovereign God does what I want Him to do.
So, the prohibition in scripture is against foolishness. But it's not against making an earnest promise to God.
Chris wrote:
Hi Peter
the best scripture for not making vows at all is:-
Matt 5:33-37
Jesus Forbids Oaths
"Again you have heard that it was said to those of old,'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.' But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. But let your 'Yes' be 'Yes ,' and your 'No,' 'No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.
NKJV
This is a pretty strong injunction to not make oaths.....even about our giving to God
Many people make vows of loyalty, etc which prevent them from acting in integrity....avoid all vows...and be free of manipulation and condemnation
regards in Christ
Chris
Chris,
In the passage you present (Matthew 5:33-37), Jesus seems to be speaking primarily about integrity. He is taking the letter of the law (the rules and regulations of the Old Testament), and is getting to the deeper meaning of the law (the "weightier matters of the law".)
The law says not to murder. In Matthew 5:21-22, Jesus takes the law further. Jesus says that someone who has malicious intent towards a brother is already guilty of murder.
The law says do not commit adultery. In Matthew 5:27-28, Jesus takes law further, and says that anyone who looks at a woman with lust is already guilty of adultery in his heart.
The law says do not break a vow to God or break an oath made before God.
Numbers 30:2
When a man makes a vow to God or binds himself by an oath to do something, he must not break his word; he must do exactly what he has said. (The Message)
In Matthew 5:34-37, Jesus takes the law further, and says that his followers are to be men and women of integrity. Jesus is warning disciples to be honest in all of their words, all of the time. God expects them to keep their word, to do what they say they will do. Jesus is warning them not to dress up anything they say as being "especially honest" or somehow "more truthful" than anything else they say.
Matthew 5:33-37
"And don't say anything you don't mean. This counsel is embedded deep in our traditions. You only make things worse when you lay down a smoke screen of pious talk, saying, 'I'll pray for you,' and never doing it, or saying, 'God be with you,' and not meaning it. You don't make your words true by embellishing them with religious lace. In making your speech sound more religious, it becomes less true. Just say 'yes' and 'no.' When you manipulate words to get your own way, you go wrong. (The Message)
This same idea is echoed in James 5:12
But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or by any other oath, but let your "yes" be yes and your "no" be no, so that you may not fall under condemnation. (ESV) James 5:12So, Matthew 5:33-37 is really telling me that every word I say is a promise to God. This passage says that I am going to be held accountable for all of my words. I am warned against adorning any of my words as a religious vow or oath, and warned against allowing any of my words to defile my integrity.
But most of all, my brothers and sisters, never take an oath, by heaven or earth or anything else. Just say a simple yes or no, so that you will not sin and be condemned. (NLT) James 5:12
And since you know that he cares, let your language show it. Don't add words like "I swear to God" to your own words. Don't show your impatience by concocting oaths to hurry up God. Just say yes or no. Just say what is true. That way, your language can't be used against you. (The Message) James 5:12
As far as this passage being a "strong injunction not to make oaths" (as you claim), I suppose the passage could be construed that way. But I think that misses the main point of this passage. Everything I say is a promise to God or a promise made before God. He already considers what I say to Him as a vow, and what I say to others as a solemn oath. I see that as the main point of this passage.
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